- Just ahead on "Black Issues Forum," we're tackling one of the most polarizing issues in the United States, immigration.

Recent inflammatory comments about Haitians have reignited the debate, shining a harsh light on the intersection of politics, prejudice, and policy.

As rhetoric escalates, we're asking how are immigrant communities, particularly Haitians being affected, and what do these remarks reveal about the broader immigration discussion in America?

We'll talk about it, coming up next, stay with us.

[upbeat music] - [Narrator] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

[upbeat music] ♪ - Welcome to "Black Issues Forum."

I'm your host, Kenia Thompson.

Well, today we're diving into a critical and contentious issue that's taking a lot of attention today.

The recent surge in divisive rhetoric, especially remarks aimed at Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio has once again put a spotlight on how deeply immigration shapes our national conversations and quickly divides the masses.

As political figures make denigrating comments about Haitian communities, the impact goes far beyond words.

It affects real lives, families, and futures.

So what do these comments mean for Haitian immigrants and what do they reveal about where we are as a country on immigration?

For today's conversation, we have two individuals who can speak directly to the challenges and resilience of the Haitian community and how they're advocating from North Carolina.

Our first guest is the co-founder and chair of the Haitians Of The Triangle, Mirlesna Azor-Sterlin.

And joining her we have Marlyne Silver, the director of membership with the North Carolina Haitian Women's Society.

Welcome to the show.

- Thank you.

- Thanks for having us.

- In pulling together this conversation, we know each other intimately, right, outside of this platform here, and this conversation has been weighing so heavy on all of us.

And the feeling that I've been having over the past few days has just been very, very heavy.

And I would love to just start out and just hear how have, how has the news and these words and these statements impacted you both?

Marlyne, we'll start with you.

- [sighing] Those words, this rhetoric, has drawn on me a rollercoaster of emotions, mainly if it's possible, a roller coaster of disappointment, extreme disappointment.

When I first heard about it, instant exhaustion came on.

It's just like it's happening all over again.

And I just felt the fight, having to make its way once more from four years ago, from the 1990s, from the 1980s, is just exhausting, or less now.

- It's bothersome, not only as individual as humans, but also we know that there are real lives at stake.

They are people, they are faces.

We are talking about some of our neighbors.

You, you are the host.

We are talking about friends, family members.

That's who those individuals are, so it's truly troublesome in 2024 to have comments like these by leaders.

- And part of the reasoning behind pulling this show together 'cause I wanted people to see what do Haitians really look like, right.

Yes, I was born in Brooklyn, but both my parents are from Haiti.

I know nothing else but the Haitian culture, you?

- I would have to say the same.

Both my parents immigrated here, rather, immigrated to Brooklyn in the early eighties.

And all I've known is church, school, home.

- And so for those that don't know the reference and why we're chuckling, the Haitian community is Lekòl, Legliz, Les Kay.

School, church, and home, that's what we do, that's where- - That's what we know.

- That's what we know.

And you?

- I was born in Haiti, and proudly here and been here for the last 21 years and yeah.

- So let's talk about it.

You mentioned a history of targeting, and I don't want to single us out as the only group that's ever been targeted.

Obviously we know that that is not the truth, but it always does seem like our targeting feels very dehumanizing.

And I'm curious on both of your opinions, why do you think in particular the Haitian people continue to be targeted in this way?

- [sighing] I really think it stems from fear.

Fear of an electorate that migrates to this country.

They know who they are, we know who we are.

And here, being in America, that lends us resources to amplify our voices about what happened prior to 1804, the jumpstart of the Slave revolt across the world.

Once it started off in Haiti, it was a trickle effect.

And so it's not to say that we're headed towards slavery again, but to have in your face, see the face that jump started or, you know, shook the table for you however long ago, they're afraid.

And when I say they, I mean those who wanna have control over what's happening here in America.

- Yeah.

- You know?

So I really think it stems from fear.

When we all can benefit from collaboration versus competition.

This is not a competition.

We're all here living in this world together.

We are all neighbors.

We're community.

So I really do feel it stems from some fear.

- Right.

- Yeah.

Definitely.

- And by definition of racism, this falls under that.

Right?

- Yes.

- So why does it make it racist?

- Well, I think there's a hefty price to pay for being the first, the only.

And we're seeing the impacts of that years later- - And to clarify, the first black nation to be freed.

- Nation to be freed, yeah.

- And that was the 1804 reference that you made earlier.

- Yes.

Absolutely.

- Yeah.

But also we're talking about, we're talking about singling out individuals based on where they come from and who they are, right?

And so, yes, it does fall under the category of hate and even racism, for sure.

- When we think about comments like this, and again, we've seen comments similar to the Mexicans building a wall and, you know, not letting them come in.

We've seen comments like this during 9/11, right, with the Muslims.

We've seen comments like this maybe with Ukrainians during that war.

But when we hear comments like this, what does that do to public opinion?

You wanna go ahead?

- Sure.

For some it shapes their beliefs, right?

They will not fact check, they will not even take the time to really understand what is at stake and what is happening.

And for others, we do have allies and we know that too, right?

That they will stand in the forefront and fight the good fight to ensure that, one, no one is left behind.

But the conversation is a productive conversation.

It's a truthful conversation.

Because we do know right now it is not truthful and it's not factual some of the statements that are coming out.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

Do you wanna add anything to that?

- You know, in having conversation with personal friends, family members, you know, these comments, not only do they begin to shape public opinion, and folks may not be interested in doing their own research, that lends to our allies questioning their relationships with us.

And it's disheartening.

It's so disheartening because you find community, you find trust within that ally.

And when that ally comes and says, really?

Is that what's happening?

It just takes you back.

It disorients.

It's very disorienting to hear these comments and know that once it's been made, you can't take it- - Cannot take it away.

- You cannot take it away.

- And I'm gonna add a little context here too.

The other part, it becomes a burden, and I'll use that word, that almost all of us have to do the work of teaching.

This is what a Haitian looks like, this is what I do, this is who I am, 'cause we do know once this label is put on you, it's almost like you're fighting for the entire nation of Haiti in order to shed light to say, no, this is not who we are.

And we know this is not who we are, but here we're having to educate people, and some don't want to be.

And we are having to put a face and name even to say, this is who we are, and we're not that, we're not what they're claiming us to be.

- You know, I had to check myself the other day because you know how social media is, right?

And I got a kind of chuckle too, right?

The songs and the dancing.

♪ They're eating the cats, they're eating ♪ You know?

- Yeah.

- And I found myself not laughing, but I have found myself before chuckling or smiling at other comments that have been similar to other cultures.

Maybe not relishing in it, right?

But finding it funny, finding it comical.

And now when you're put in the shoes of being the one that's ridiculed, it's not as funny, right?

And I think a lot of times people don't understand how deep those comments are or the perception that it has until they're in the shoes.

Right?

- Yeah.

- We had an episode not too long ago about misinformation versus disinformation.

And how disinformation is a political tactic, essentially.

And this seems to kind of fall into that arena.

How do you think, or how do you feel this has, what's the larger impact, is my question, on immigration as a whole?

Because we know it's not just Haitian immigrants in this country.

- Right?

- This country is built upon immigrants.

- Absolutely, yes.

Absolutely.

- Right.

So when we talk about immigration laws and what that does for other groups, how do you think this might impact immigration as a whole?

- This level of disinformation in my mind speaks to the majority, weaponizing these comments in terms of immigration.

I don't wanna generalize, but when comments like what Trump said years ago about Haiti being a craphole country.

And then we hear this about eating pets.

I can't help but to think that they're using this to weaponize against immigration, to begin the steps of denaturalization.

I mean, that comment regarding denaturalization wasn't too far away from when the doubling down on comments about pet eating.

- Yeah.

- You know, it's an agenda.

So I can't help but feel like they're taking the steps to create an agenda to reverse all attempts, all progress made on the backs of immigrants within this country.

That's where I feel, this is leading up to.

- Yeah.

- I'm gonna borrow a couple words from Congresswoman Sheila McCormick, Cherfilus-McCormick, and she said on a call that we were on yesterday that this is an attempt to incriminate and de-legitimize, so I'm paraphrasing here, immigrants.

So then for me, what that means, it creates this idea of the them versus us.

These people, you point at them and then you automatically think there's something wrong with them.

They are not fit to be here.

They should not be here.

So people just are not going to be pro-immigration.

And we do know that immigration has worked.

We do know there's more work to be done in shaping our laws and policies, but to say either a whole group of individual are horrible or carrying diseases, we've seen this in the '90s.

It's baffling, and we're still repeating those same comments in 2024.

And I do wanna point that these comments will have significant impact on individuals, especially mental, right.

We do know right now stress can kill, right.

We know this, this is factual.

Doctors have said it.

So then that's a level of stress in our community that has impact like dying.

It's real.

- And I was reading an article yesterday, it was more of an opinion piece, but it really resonated with me.

And it spoke to the fact that these comments aren't just comments ridiculing a group of people, they're dehumanizing them, right.

You've seen some of the images that have popped up on your screen.

We see cats and dogs saying, please vote for Trump so that we can live, right You're prioritizing.

And I love my dog.

I love my animals, right.

But we're prioritizing pets over humans.

So what you're telling me, and I don't wanna get emotional about that, but what you're telling me is that I'm really nothing, right.

I'm not even worth, I'm nothing.

And just to clarify, Springfield police have not had any valid records or complaints of any of this happening.

- And Vance lied - And continues on.

- And continues to lie.

You said there was something that was stated late last night.

Do you mind sharing?

- Yeah.

So I guess the conversation that is shifting from also IQs and then the utilization of the word illegal aliens, again, problematic.

For context of immigration, even calling an individual alien is perplexing at this point, but also illegal.

I mean, I'm always gonna use the word that's a personal choice in quotation.

No, human beings are illegal.

We all have lands we created, and the sociologists in me would say, we created borders.

And so yes, I can hear there are rules and regulation and understand that, but to understand people are fleeing trauma, people are fleeing, people are in despair.

That's a very different conversation about humans than just illegal.

They are context to illegality.

So we can talk about that.

- I wanna put a pin there, because you talked about fleeing from very traumatic events, and we've seen what's happening over there, right?

I have yet to even go visit this nation of my people because, you know, my parents are afraid for me to go there.

And frankly, I am a little bit as well, but we saw similar people fleeing from Ukraine, coming here arms wide open for the most part, right?

And this just seems like a very polarizing thing.

We've also seen a lot of celebrities, a lot of leaders take to social media and voice their opinions.

John Legend, who is from the area, talked about how, for the longest time, Springfield was really in a deficit, right?

And there was a lot that needed help.

Forgive me if my numbers are wrong, but population had decreased significantly by about 10 to 15,000 people.

This was before the Haitian immigration population came there, under mostly TPS programs- - Humanitarian programs.

- ... humanitarian programs, legally, so let's just say that.

- Yes.

- And since then, there's been a lot of benefit.

- Absolutely.

- Has there not been?

- Yes.

- We have a similar connection here in North Carolina.

You know very well about the Mount Olive population of Haitians.

I'd love for you to share what that's done for that space.

- Sure, I mean, we've seen this and probably will continue to see this.

So in towns, for example, like Warsaw, North Carolina, Mount Olive, North Carolina, we do know using the word influx of Haitians is also problematic, right?

We are seeing a large number of individual leaving state and coming to another state, which is open to all of us, right?

We should be able to explore any state for that matter, right?

In order to get a better life or, you know, get a business or start a business.

So we do know it's doable and feasible, by saying the influx of these particular people, Haitian people, create commotion in your town or in your city, is not factual.

So we are paying taxes, Haitians do pay taxes, our kids are going to school, so we are bettering our education system and our next generation, the future, right?

And so there's benefit.

This should never be seen as a deficit.

But then also there are challenges, which I believe that's what we're not conversing about.

So we're distracted about influx of Haitians in town.

So when we do know these people, again, have had traumatic experiences, they need mental health services, for example.

We need more translation services.

So language equity is something in the Haitian community we know too well, it's not present.

So how can we government, nonprofits, schools, people get together and ensure that we are putting resources rather than fearing each other, making sure the community is whole and great and strong.

- Aha.

- Yeah, absolutely.

- Anything you wanna add?

- No, it's just that when we have these conversations about Springfield, Ohio, yes, I want to center the conversation, not only here in North Carolina, but in other towns and other cities where Haitians are immigrating to.

Indiana, there's a large population there.

North Carolina, a lot of people, to this day, people still say, "There are Haitians in North Carolina?"

- You're right, they're a lot of us here.

- Yeah, a lot of us here, "What are you doing over there?"

You know, my own personally, my brother just moved to Idaho.

- Oh wow.

- You know, so yes, there are immigrant communities looking for opportunity, you know, in other places besides Miami, besides Boston.

And understand that when those communities spring up there, you know, they're springing up, what comes with a spring benefits to that land, springs of water refreshment.

But there's also going to be, like you said, challenges.

And what we need to do is learn, have patience and accommodate naturally, organically those communities.

You know, the same efforts you would bring to someone in your own family who's experiencing something new, that's all I believe that these Haitian immigrants who've experienced the trauma, who've experienced barriers, it takes so much to uplift yourself from an island like Haiti.

You visit there and instantly you feel the magic.

That's my experience.

I've done my darnedest, my best to visit every year, because it is just that magical to be amongst the people to take in the food.

- It's just the food.

- The food.

- Okay?

- Yes.

- So, if you take the time to just learn about the culture, share in the culture, have a conversation.

I mean, it's just magical.

So, let's not turn our backs because of... - One comment.

- One comment.

- Yeah.

- You know?

It was false claims.

- Yeah.

- Last question.

Your thoughts on how we move forward?

What responsibilities do leaders have?

What responsibilities do we have?

- I mean, get out and vote.

- Yeah.

- Yes.

- And you know, I know it's redundant to say, do your research.

You really need to, you really need to, I mean, if this isn't an example to do your research, we went from folks eating pets in Springfield, Ohio, to, at the very end of this week, claim after claim, I mean, being turned around.

Questioning of community members.

What happened to that comment?

Them quickly saying, "I never meant that, I didn't mean for this to escalate."

- Right.

- Or honestly, what has disturbed me throughout this is that that young woman, there was a young woman in Canton, Ohio, that was allegedly committing animal cruelty.

Once I watched that video, you could see on her face that she's going through something that none of us- - [Host] Could understand.

- Could understand.

And I wondered at that time, what about her resources?

Who's helping her?

You know, all we're talking about something happened in Springfield, Ohio, Haitians, Haitians, Haitians.

- Yeah.

- Well, what about that young lady?

What are we doing to assist our current communities?

- Right.

- And get that focus on our community?

- Yeah.

I wanna give Mirlesna a chance.

- Sure, sure.

I would say for leaders to be vessels of light and hope and love.

- [Marlyne] Absolutely.

- It is reckless endangerment when folks use comments or words that we know are not positive, are rooted in ignorance and racism.

So we want leaders to be mindful of what they are saying, but essentially getting out to vote.

But I would also add that caveat, even if you cannot vote, get your people to the poll.

- Yes.

- Drive people to the poll.

Encourage people if they're not from a state and they are moving to another state to get their absentee ballot and still vote.

So that is important.

Our voice matters for generation and generation to come.

- Absolutely.

- Really quick, we got about a minute left.

10 seconds from me.

10 seconds from you.

One thing you want people to know about Haitians.

- Okay.

I'm Marlyne Silver, [people laugh] director of membership with Carolina Haitian Women's Society.

- Yes.

- And we're here as a nonprofit ready to maintain the Haitian culture here in the Carolinas.

We're looking forward to opening up next year, hopefully, a Haitian heritage school where we get to pour into our young people.

- Yeah.

- And maintain the Creole language and the culture here in the Carolinas.

- Thank you.

- Yes.

What do I want people to know?

That Haitians are resilient.

Haitians are courageous.

Haitians are us.

We are Haitians.

And we love our country.

And we will die for our country.

And we just want people to have the right words of positivity about Haiti.

- Mirlesna, Marlyne, thank you so much.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- And we thank you for watching today.

And if you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson, I'll see you next time.

[upbeat music] ♪ - [Announcer] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you, who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.