NEXT, TO THE IMMIGRATION CRISIS ON THE U.S. SOUTHERN BORDER, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS GOING TO ROLL OUT RESTRICTIONS THAT SOME CRITICS CLAIM ARE SO STRICT THEY ECHO TRUMP'S.

THE POLICY WOULD DENY MIGRANTS ASYLUM IF THEY CROSS THE BORDER ILLEGALLY OR FAIL TO FIRST APPLY FOR SAFE HARBOR IN ANOTHER COUNTRY.

JAY JOHNSON WAS SECRETARY OF HOME LAND SECURITY UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA AND HE JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO DISCUSS HOW THE ISSUE TODAY IS MORE CHALLENGING THAN EVER.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

MR. SECRETARY JAY JOHNSON, THANKS FOR TALKING TO US AGAIN.

>> PLEASURE TO BE HERE AGAIN.

>> SO YOU SERVED AS PRESIDENT OBAMA'S SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY FOR FOUR YEARS FROM 2013 TO 2017.

BACK THEN, YOU SAID THE SITUATION AT THE BORDER WAS A CRISIS.

NOW APPREHENSIONS AT THE BORDER AT AN ALL TIME -- AT LEVELS WE HAVEN'T SEEN IN SOME TWO DECADES.

JUST BEFORE WE SORT OF DIG INTO THE DETAILS, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> FIRST, MICHELLE, THERE WERE TIMES WHEN WE SAW SPIKES WHILE I WAS IN OFFICE MAY 2014 COMES TO MIND.

WE HAD THAT MONTH, 68,000 APPREHENSIONS IN THE SOUTHERN BORDER BACK THEN NINE YEARS AGO DID FEEL LIKE A CRISIS.

NOW OF COURSE, THE NUMBERS ARE MULTIPLES OF THAT THE LEVEL OF RESOURCES THAT BORDER SECURITY PERSONNEL IN TEXAS, ARIZONA, NEW MEXICO HAVE ARE MUCH BIGGER AS WELL BUT THE PROBLEM IS DEFINITELY BIGGER NOW AND IT'S A CRISIS IN MULTIPLE RESPECTS.

A, NUMBERS OF 250,000 A MONTH, 150,000 A MONTH, EVEN OVERWHELM THE BORDER PATROL'S ABILITY AND ISIS' ABILITY TO KEEP TRACK OF THE PEOPLE TO PROCESS ALL THESE PEOPLE TO PLACE IN THE IMMIGRATION COURTS ALL THESE PEOPLE AND FRANKLY IT OVERWHELMS THE COMMUNITY.

YOU TRY TO ABSORB THE NUMBERS INTO THEIR LOCAL CHARITIES, THE VOLUNTEER ORGANIZATIONS AND SO NUMBERS LIKE THIS ARE A CRISIS AND WE SHOULD NOT BECOME, YOU KNOW, WE SHOULD NOT LOOK AT THIS IN ANY SORT OF NORMALIZED WAY.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S HAPPENING NOW, THE COMMON WISDOM HERE IS THAT THE SORT OF INFORMAL NETWORK OR HOWEVER PEOPLE TRYING TO MAKE THE DECISION TO CROSS ARE MAKING IT ARE ANTICIPATING THE END OF TITLE 42, WHICH WAS THE TRUMP SORT OF ERA MECHANISM TO RAPIDLY DEPORT PEOPLE SITING THE PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY?

>> FROM OWNING THIS PROBLEM FOR THE 37 MONTHS THAT I DID THERE ARE CERTAIN BASIC LESSONS THAT I BELIEVE REMAIN TRUE.

ONE, THE PUSH FACTORS ARE THE PREDOMINANT DRIVING FORCE BEHIND PEOPLE SHOWING UP ON OUR SOUTHERN BORDER, THE PROBLEM IS BIGGER NOW IN 2022, 2023 BECAUSE YOU HAVE CUBA, NICARAGUA AND VENEZUELA.

IN 2014 IT WAS MEXICANS, GUT MA LA -- GUATEMALA AND HONDURAS AND WE HAVE ADDITIONAL COUNTRIES WITH WHOM WE HAVE ALMOST NO DIPLOMATIC RELATIONSHIP TO RE-ENGAGE IN THE PROCESS OF REPATRIOTING THEM.

THAT'S NUMBER ONE.

NUMBER TWO, THE SMUGGLERS EXACERBATE THE MESSAGE.

THEY'RE LIKED USED CAR DEALERS TO SAY THE SALE IS GOING TO EXPIRE AT THE END OF THE WEEK.

YOU HAVE TO GO NOW.

THERE IS A FEEDING FRENZY, A SNOWBALL EFFECT TO THIS AND SO YOU SEE NUMBERS INCREASING THAT THEY ARE BECAUSE PEOPLE SEE OTHER PEOPLE LEAVING HEADING NORTH AND DECIDE IT'S TIME FOR THEM TO COME TO AND THE OTHER CORRELATION TO THIS PROBLEM, THE HARD LESSON I LEARNED IS THAT WE CAN DO CERTAIN THINGS TO ENHANCE ENFORCEMENT ON OUR SOUTHERN BORDER, WHICH WILL HAVE AN ALMOST IMMEDIATE IMPACT ON THE NUMBERS BECAUSE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS A VERY INFORMATION SENSITIVE PHENOMENON AND REACTS SHARPLY TO INFORMATION ABOUT RECEIPT CHANGES ONE WAY OR ANOTHER BUT SO LONG AS THE UNDERLYING CONDITIONS EXIST IN THESE SOURCED COUNTRIES THAT ARE DRIVING FAMILIES TO MAKE THIS DECISION TO LEAVE THIS PROBLEM IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO PERSIST AND THE NUMBERS ARE ALWAYS AN ELAPSE BACK TO THE LONGER TREND TERM LINES.

>> IN THE NEAR TERM, AS YOU CERTAINLY KNOW, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS ANNOUNCED THIS NEW POLICY, IT'S A PROPOSAL POLICY OPEN FOR PUBLIC COMMENT NOW AND THE DETAILS ARE IT WOULD RECRETE A PRESUMPTION OF ILL LEGALITY IF YOU DON'T MAKE CERTAIN CONDITIONS THAT WOULD MAKE IT EASIER TO DEPORT PEOPLE.

IT SAYS MOST -- IF YOU CROSS THE SOUTHERN BORDER ILLEGALLY, IF YOU DON'T NOTIFY THE AUTHORITIES THAT YOU'RE COMING THROUGH THIS APP OR IF YOU DON'T APPLY FOR ASYLUM IN A COUNTRY THAT YOU PASSED THROUGH THAT IS MOST LIKELY MEXICO.

OBVIOUSLY, THE AD VACATES SAY THIS IS TOP LINE TO INHUMANITY.

>> NOTHING THIS HAS DONE APPROACHES THE LEVEL OF INHUMANITY IN THE POLICIES OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

THAT WAS DETOUR RANS ON STEROIDS SEPARATING CHILDREN FROM PARENTS SEPARATING INFANTS FROM THEIR MOTHER IS INHUMAN AND IT VIOLATES BASIC LAWS OF DECISION -- DECENCY.

WHAT THIS ADMINISTRATION IS DOING IS BUILDING OFF THE SUCCESS WITH VENEZUELA LAST FALL.

THEY BASICALLY CREATED A POLICY FROM THOSE COMING FROM VENEZUELA TO SAY THERE IS A RIGHT WAY AND WRONG WAY TO COME HERE, LET'S CREATE THIS LEGAL PATHWAY FOR YOU TO COME HERE AND APPLY FOR ASYLUM.

FOLLOW THAT.

DON'T JUST SHOW UP ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

THAT PROGRAM SAW SUCCESS BECAUSE THE NUMBERS OF VENEZUELAS AFTER THE PROGRAM WAS DENOUNCED CLIMBED SIGNIFICANTLY.

THE BASIC POINT HERE IS YOU CAN'T PADLOCK A BURNING BUILDING.

YOU HAVE TO GIVE PEOPLE A WAY TO LEAVE LEGALLY AND SAFELY SO ADMINISTRATION IS BUILDING ON THAT TO SAY THAT WE'RE CREATING LAWFUL SAFE MECHANISMS FOR YOU TO SEEK ASYLUM IN THE UNITED STATES.

HERE IS THE WAY YOU DO IT.

YOU KNOW, USE THIS APP OR APPLY IN COUNTRY OR APPLY IN MEXICO AND YOU'RE ASYLUM CLAIM WILL BE CONSIDERED.

SO THEY'RE TRYING THE VEEZUELA EXPERIMENT ON A MUCH BIGGER SCALE.

ONCE THIS POLICY GOES INTO EFFECT THERE WILL BE LEGAL CHALLENGES TO IT.

PEOPLE HAVE A BASIC RIGHT IF THEY QUALIFY FOR ASYLUM IN THIS COUNTRY TO RECEIVE ASYLUM UNDER THE LAW EVEN THOUGH YOU MIGHT QUALIFY LEGALLY FOR ASYLUM BECAUSE YOU HAVE A WELL FOUNDED FEAR OF PROSECUTION IN YOUR HOME COUNTRY THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT WILL MAKE YOU UNELIGIBLE FOR ASYLUM OR EXAMPLE AND IF YOU'RE A CONVICTED FELON SOMEPLACE.

ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO BROADEN THOSE BASIS FOR INELIGIBILITY TO NOT FOLLOW THE COMPASS.

I'M SURE THERE WILL BE LEGAL CHALLENGES TO THAT.

AND WE'LL SEE HOW THE COURTS CONSIDER IT.

>> WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER?

I'M INTERESTED IN YOUR OPINION.

>> OUR IMMIGRATION COURTS ARE HOPELESSLY BACKLOGGED.

AND IT TAKES YEARS TO ADJUDICATE AN ASYLUM CLAIM AND MIGRANTS KNOW THAT, TWO, THREE, FIVE YEARS.

THE OTHER POINT ABOUT HOW WE ADJUDICATE ASYLUM CASES, MANY CASES ON THE FRONT END OF THE PROCESS, THE MIGRANT HAS TO ESTABLISH A CASE OF CREDIBLE FEAR.

I HAVE A CREDIBLE FEAR IF I'M RETURNED TO MY HOME COUNTRY, I WILL BE PERSECUTED.

THAT BAR IS RELATIVELY LOW.

THE ULTIMATE BAR TO ASYLUM IS MUCH HIGHER AND SO YOU HAVE A CERTAIN HIGH PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE QUALIFYING ON THE FRONT END FOR CREDIBLE FEAR AND ON THE BACK END, FOR THE ULTIMATE ADJUDICATION OR FEAR, THAT NUMBER THAT PERCENTAGE IS MUCH LOWER.

MIGRANTS KNOW THAT.

PEOPLE KNOW THAT AND MANY BECAUSE THEY ARE SO DESPERATE TO LEAVE WHERE THEY'RE COMING FROM AND STAY IN THE UNITED STATES ARE WILLING TO STAY HERE EVEN FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS WHILE THEIR ASYLUM CLAIM IS PENDING, YOU SEND MONEY HOME TO FAMILIES AND MAKING THE BASIC CHOICE THEY'RE BETTER OFF DOING THAT THAN STAYING IN VENEZUELA OR GUATEMALA OR HAITI OR CUBA.

>> WHAT I'M GETTING FOR YOU IS THIS POLICY IS A WAY TO SLOW IT DOWN, SEND A SIGNAL WHICH IS NOT GOING TO BE EASY BECAUSE OF THAT.

>> MICHELLE, THIS ARE PUSH FACTORS AND THEN THERE ARE ASPECTS THAT OPERATE AS MAGNETS.

THE SHEER LENGTH OF TIME IT TAKES TO ADJUDICATE A CLAIM IS A MAGNET.

THE TWO DIFFERING BARS BETWEEN CREDIBLE FEAR AND ULTIMATE CASE FOR ASYLUM IS A MAGNET.

THE PUSH FACT TOMORROWS ARE THE BIGGEST FACTORS.

THEY OVERWHELM THE SYSTEM.

BUT OUR BROKEN SYSTEM DOES HAVE THESE FEATURES THAT OPERATE AS MAGNETS AND WHAT THIS ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO DO, AT LEAST IN THE SHORT TERM IS TO ADDRESS THOSE FACETS OF OUR BROKEN IMMIGRATION SYSTEM SERVING AS MAGNETS.

MEASURES WILL CAUSE A DOWNTURN ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

WE SAW A DOWNTURN IN THE MONTH OF JANUARY 2023 FOR EXAMPLE.

BUT SO LONG AS THE UNDER LYING PUSH FACTORS PERSIST, THE NUMBERS ARE ALWAYS GOING TO REVERT BACK TO NORMS AND LONGER TERM TREND LINES.

>> SO I GET WHAT YOU'RE SAYING ABOUT THE PUSH FACTORS, THE PUSH FACTORS ARE SOMETHING PEOPLE HAVE TALKED MORE OPENLY ABOUT AND CERTAINLY SOMETHING DEMOCRATS TALK A LOT ABOUT.

THEY TALK ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND THE EFFECTS OF GANG VIOLENCE AND THE EFFECTS OF POLITICAL INSTABILITY AND ARE THOSE -- IS THERE REALLY A WILL TO ADDRESS THOSE FACTORS AND DOES THE UNITED STATES REALLY EVEN HAVE THE CAPACITY TO ADDRESS THOSE FACTORS?

>> ONE QUESTION IS DO WE HAVE THE WILL TO DO THIS?

SECOND QUESTION IS CAN WE DO THIS?

SO LET ME START WITH THE CAN WE DO THIS?

THROUGH A SUSTAINED EFFORT, I BELIEVE WE CAN.

FOR EXAMPLE, IN 2016 MY LAST YEAR IN OFFICE, WE GOT CONGRESS TO APPROPRIATE $750 MILLION TO THREE COUNTRIES, GUATEMALA, HONDURAS AND EL SALVADOR FOR THIS PURPOSE.

ENABLING A COFFEE GROWER IN QUAD -- GUATEMALA TO GET BETTER AT DELIVERING HIS PRODUCT BETTER TO THE MARKET GIVES PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY HOPE.

IT ENABLES THEM TO ENCOURAGE WORKERS TO STAY IN GUATEMALA BECAUSE THEY HAVE A FUTURE.

FUNDING FOR ANTI CORRUPTION EFFORTS CAN WORK.

NOW, GETTING TO THE WILL WE, DO WE HAVE THE WILL?

I FEEL WE DO NOT.

PEOPLE WANT QUICK FIXES TO THIS PROBLEM ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER AND IT IS NOT A PROBLEM AMEMORABLE.

THERE IS NO QUICK FIX TO CLIMATE CHANGE.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT CAN GO AWAY BECAUSE YOU ISSUE AN EXECUTIVE ORDER, YOU SOMEHOW CLOSE THE SOUTHERN BORDER SO WE HAVE TO COME TO A RECOGNITION THAT REQUIRES YEARS TO SOLVE AND ADDRESS AND I'VE TALKED TO DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS.

POLITICALLY, IS IT ATTRACTIVE, NOT VERY?

THE REALITY IS IF WE ADDRESS THIS AND THIS IS ONE OF THE HARD LESSONS WE LEARNED, YOU HAVE TO ADDRESS IT AT THE SOURCE.

>> WHY IS THIS SO HARD?

THIS IS A SITUATION GOING BACK YEARS DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ALL AGREE THIS IS A PROBLEM.

>> THIS IS HARD BECAUSE IT'S OVER POLITICIZED.

OVER THE LAST, I'LL SAY, TEN YEARS THIS HAS BECOME A LIGHTNING ROD RED MEAT OVER POLL -- POLITICIZED ISSUE.

MANY STOKE RACISM AROUND THIS ISSUE.

THE GREAT REPLACEMENT THEORY, WHICH IS EMBRACED BY HIGH PERCENTAGES OF AMERICANS.

PEOPLE ARE SOMEHOW AFRAID OF THE BROWNING OF AMERICA FROM OUR SOUTHERN BORDER.

SO IT'S BECOME AN OVER POLITICIZED ISSUE AND POLITICIANS, POLITICIANS ON THE RIGHT FRANKLY STOKE THIS AND IT'S BECOME VERY DIFFICULT TO REACH COMPROMISE ON THIS.

AS RECENTLY 2016, IT PASSED WITH 68 VOTES.

THAT'S A LOT OF REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS.

AT SOME POINT ALONG THE WAY IT IS A TALKING POINT AND MORE ATTRACTIVE ON THE RIGHT AND LEFT TO POLITICIZE ON THIS ISSUE, SCREAM AND CALL THEM EVIL AND NOT DO THE HARD WORK TO COME TOGETHER AND TRY TO REACH A COMPROMISE, WHICH TOO MANY PEOPLE VIEW AS POLITICALLY COSTLY.

>> OKAY.

YOU'VE IDENTIFIED PUSH FACTORS ON THE RIGHT AS IT WERE NOT GETTING TO SOLUTIONS.

WHERE HAVE THE DEMOCRATS FAILED?

HOW HAVE THEY CONTRIBUTED TO FAILING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM?

>> THEY'RE CERTAIN THINGS THAT NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT AND LEFT ARE GOING TO YELL AT YOU.

ON THE LEFT, THEY GET UPSET IF WE ARREST PEOPLE AND IF WE DETAIN PEOPLE AND DEPORT PEOPLE.

THE LOGICAL EXTENSION OF THAT IS OPEN BORDERS.

ON THE RIGHT WE SHOULD ARREST EVERYBODY, DETAIN EVERYBODY AND DEPORT EVERYBODY.

SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN IS ANI CAN -- EQUAL LIBRIUM.

>> THE LAST TIME IT WAS PASSED WAS 1986 A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT AND DEMOCRATIC CONTROLLED CONGRESS.

DO YOU HAVE A SENSE WHAT IT WOULD TAKE TO GET BACK TO A BIPARTISAN CONSENSUS?

>> WHEN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY DECIDES FOR ITSELF THAT IS IT IN ITS POLITICAL SELF-INTEREST TO EMBRACE REFORM, FOR A LONG TIME THAT WAS THEIR VIEW.

1986, 1980s DURING GEORGE W. BUSH'S PRESIDENCY, HE WAS ABOUT IMMIGRATION REFORM AND AS RECENTLY AS 2013.

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS WALKED AWAY FROM THAT AND DOESN'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS ISSUE EXCEPT TO SCREAM AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THE NUMBERS CROSSING THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

AGAIN, IT TRACKS BACK, MICHELLE, TO WHERE DO THE POLITICAL INCENTIVES LIE OR AT LEAST WHERE DO POLITICIANS PERCEIVE THAT THEIR POLITICAL INCENTIVES LIE?

IN MY OPINION, AMERICANS SHOULD JUDGE VOTERS, SHOULD JUDGE THEIR REPRESENTATIVES BASED UPON STUFF THEY GET DONE, NOT SIMPLY WHAT THEY SCREAM ABOUT AND WHAT THEY SAY THEY STAND FOR.

IF WE HAD A REPORT CARD FOR MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, FOR THE NUMBER OF BILLS THEY SPONSORED AND GOT PASSED VERSUS SIMPLY WHERE DO YOU STAND ON ALL THESE OVER HEATED ISSUES, WE'D SEE A LOT MORE GETTING DONE IN WASHINGTON.

>> FORMER SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, MICHELLE.