By any measure, we live in a free but unequal society.

By accident or birth, young people grow up with different opportunities, including unequal access to food, housing, education, and jobs.

This can lead to very specific kinds of problems, including children getting funneled into a system of punishment and incarceration for which they are not prepared and which is not prepared for them.

The result is futures shut down, opportunities extinguish forever.

What would you want for your child?

We can agree that when young people cause harm, there ought to be consequences.

And we can agree that children should not be locked up in adult prisons, but that happens far too often.

When it does, what is the way back?

Returning Citizens is made possible by the United Way, fostering the success of those who, as they return to our neighborhoods, remain a largely untapped resource, the formerly incarcerated.

Waterman II Fund of the Philadelphia Foundation at the recommendation of David Haas, the Independence Foundation.

The founders of the Youth Sentencing & Reentry Project, Lauren Fine, and Joanna Visser-Adjoian have devoted their legal careers to fighting for the rights and dignity of young people in trouble.

They are dedicated to the principle that no child should be left alone to face a criminal legal system that is not designed for kids.

Uh, tell us about your work.

Lauren, how did you come to be one of the co-founders of this project?

We simply saw too many things that we couldn't look away from.

Um, I was working at another nonprofit, uh, legal center in the city, and it just became very clear that there was both a racial divide and a socioeconomic divide as far as how young people were treated in our system.

Um, as a white woman sitting in the back of the courtroom seeing that most of the folks with the power look like me and we were throwing away, uh, children.

And you said you saw things you couldn't look away from.

What were some of those things?

Um, I had a, a young person who, um, stole a toothbrush from Walgreens while he was homeless, and he was offered a, um, a program for first, first time offenders.

Um, but you had to pay to get into that program.

And he, the absurdity of someone who had to steal a toothbrush, um, which is a very clear survival crime, um, that he could buy his way into some semblance of justice, was, um, simply un, you know, unspeakably cruel to me.

So when children cause harm, should there be consequences?

Absolutely.

Um, we all understand that as folks who've been children, um, and you know, some of us who are parents as well.

There, there have to be consequences.

But there's, there's consequences to those consequences and there's a lot of different choices that we can make as community members, um, and as actors in the legal system that have less harmful consequences.

Yeah.

And when we think about people who are experts in the criminal legal system, uh, you think that children who are involved in the system are, are among those experts?

We do.

Why is that?

Because we've seen it in case, in and case out, uh, how young people who are in cages can hold the expertise of what is happening to them, what has happened to them, and how when you honor that and value their voices in a meaningful way, the expertise is just incredibly deep.

And it's not just what they hold, it's also what their loved ones hold.

Um, the expertise of community, of parents, of loved ones.

Uh, in our work, we spent countless hours interviewing teachers, social workers, coaches, people who have come into contact with the young person who is the focal point of a particular situation, and the expertise that each one of those actors is holding about, uh, maybe the harm that was caused, but also the ripple effects of that, the context in which that occurred is profound.

And sometimes in the news we hear when children have committed serious offenses that they're going to be tried as adults.

Mm-Hmm.

What, what does that even mean?

We're pretending something that isn't true, um, that we all understand anecdotally, um, as human beings, but even the system understands.

Um, there was a 10-year-old in Pennsylvania not too many years ago who was being tried as an adult, put in adult jail cell and given crayons.

Wait a minute?

A 10-year-old?

10-year-old.

Um, and the charges were undoubtedly serious, but they had people in the jail giving him crayons because he was 10.

He was a child.

And our system is pretending that he is something that he's not.

How big can we think about the futures that can be provided to all children in this country, not just those who are finding a way to succeed in incredibly challenging circumstances?

- All of that... - Mad respect to those kids.

That's right.

Exactly.

But also mad respect to the kids who are having more trouble.

Yes.

Yes.

Brian Stevenson talks about the reflection of a culture being how we treat the poor that condemn the incarcerated.

And we are not doing well on that measure as far as how we treat children, um, who, who make bad decisions unquestionably.

And, you know, there needs to be caring, empathetic responses when young people do mess up, and that's what we've tried to provide.

Dr. Lawrence Steinberg, a groundbreaking expert on adolescent psychology and behavior, champions a revolutionary way of responding when children cause harm.

I know one of your big ideas is that we have to rethink adolescents.

Why should we rethink adolescents?

As we've learned more and more about brain development, it's become quite clear that brain maturation extends a lot longer than we thought it had.

And, and what are the consequences of brains not being fully developed at 18?

How does that show up in law?

The the argument is that if juveniles are not as mature as adults in important ways for judging their culpability, then they shouldn't be punished in the same way either.

What's your sense of where we are as a society on that issue now?

The question is, as a society, what's the best way to respond when a young person violates the law commits a, a serious crime?

So there isn't any question that we ought to respond somehow there should be consequences.

Um, and some kids are dangerous and communities need to be protected from individuals who might do harm to other members of the community.

Um, on the other hand, people are capable of change.

Young people particularly are capable of change.

And so we wanna make sure that whatever we do in response to somebody's criminal behavior, um, doesn't make that person more likely to offend in the future.

Right.

We want to have interventions that are gonna make the person less likely to offend in the future.

It seems to me that there's some hope in this idea of brain plasticity, in terms of rehabilitation, in terms of even when kids have done very bad things.

In the church sometimes they say, God's not finished with me yet.

But in a real sense, you have some growing up to do that can be done.

I think that a, that a, a decent and humane society gives people second chances.

Um, and that's really what we're talking about here.

And these second chances there could be a big payoff for children.

Oh, a big payoff for children and for communities.

I mean, I, I think, look, we, we, we know that 90% of juvenile offenders don't become adult criminals.

Say that again.

90% of juvenile offenders do not become adult criminals.

Wow.

Right.

So most of them ... You say, we know that.

I don't think most people actually know that.

I don't, that I think most people don't know that.

And I think unfortunately, they, they can look at a juvenile, look at a 16-year-old, a 17-year-old has committed a bad act and say, this person is incorrigible.

This person is ir, irreparably, uh, uh, troublesome.

Um, but that's not true.

And that's not true in the vast majority of cases.

The question is how do we design a system that provides opportunities for people to be rehabilitated?

YSRPs, Intergenerational Healing Circle gathers together people of all ages and life experiences.

It's a safe space to talk about trauma, injustice, the pain of incarceration, the challenges of reentry, and hope for the future.

You know, this Intergenerational Healing Circle, you know, we use circle processes, restorative justice circle process, right?

Or what's called restorative justice, which is, um, basically what indigenous people all around the world have been doing for millennia.

A talking piece is what some indigenous societies over here used to, um, basically an item that has a meaning that we attribute meaning to, right?

And we pass it around in a circle, and whoever is holding the talking piece is the only one that's talking.

So this ensures that that person is thoroughly heard.

Can we agree on some values that we wanna govern us as we talk to each other here today?

So that would mean each of us throwing out a value that we want us to be centered on.

So like, for instance, I say, um, respect.

You know, like being relaxed.

I think that when we do these types of interviews, sometimes you don't catch the full essence of when it's just us, because everybody not as relaxed and comfortable.

And then later on, you know, you look back and be like, ah, you know, I think I missed this, or I should've spoke about this or that.

You know, we, you know, we always kind of speak about the things that's we are passionate about, you know, things that, you know, touches our heart the most, what affects us the most.

So to sum all that up, passion, for me.

For me, it's being open-minded about what it means to be a, a black man and, and not get too hung up on like expectations about, you know, being this specific performance of masculinity.

Like at first when you're passing this around, it's like a red heart, you know?

Come on man.

But, you know, I know that's kind of like my own issues.

So I just want to like, be comfortable, um, not feeling like judged about, you know, how much of a black man I am, like how hard I have to be.

Uh, I will say, uh, patience, you know, patience with, with regard to when someone's talking, you know, let them finish their statement.

You don't try to like overtalk them.

Um, um, you know, so yeah, just be patient with one another.

What are you taking away from this conversation here today?

In a word or a sentence, what are you taking away from this conversation today?

And I'll pass it to Stacey first.

Enthusiasm.

A a comfort level with being vulnerable.

Motivation that we only going to get better.

So I think mine would be just hope and optimism whenever we had these types of discussions.

Um, I would like to say strength or in the ability to keep going.

Hmm.

I would say, uh, gratefulness, you know, just thankful for the opportunity that I've been given, uh, to continue this kind of work here.

And so I'm grateful.

And mines would be accountability.

Accountability to my brothers, you know, accountability to my community, you know, and, and to the world, so.

In 2012, the Supreme Court in a case called Miller v. Alabama ruled that mandatory life sentences for children are unconstitutional.

Many young people who judges have been forced to lock up for the rest of their lives got to come home.

We wanted to hear what they had to say.

And how old were you when you got locked up?

I was 15.

How long were you inside?

I did 35 years.

Uh, sentenced to life without pro, possibility of parole.

15 years old, sentenced to die in prison?

Yes.

Went to prison when I was 14 years old for second degree murder.

What was your sentence?

A life without parole.

I served 24 years.

I was 17 when I was locked up as far as an adult.

I got a life sentence that's theft by incarceration, never to expect me to come home to die in jail.

Zakair, what's the E block?

E block is the only juvenile block up pick for, um, juveniles as child and an adult.

What was that like?

Hell on earth.

And what was the experience like of being, uh, a teenager locked up with, with grown men?

You know, it's a predatory environment.

You know, so being a kid coming in there, it's like, one thing I learned early on is the, the more violent you are, the more people respect you and leave you alone.

So I was just like, the most violent you can be.

And a hole is is solitary confinement.

Solitary confinement.

And have you ever been in the hole?

More times than I can count.

And, and, and people see it on TV, but what, what's it like being in solitary confinement?

Challenging intellectually.

There's a lot of things like the conditions that's like, that's hard.

The, the type of people that, the type of people that, that they have as staff.

Like, just everything as a whole, it's just like, you want, you wouldn't, you wouldn't expect it to be like that, but it's exactly how it is.

You know I had gave up ever coming home.

I wasn't one of them people that, that, you know, always, I'm going home one day.

I was one of them people that's like, I don't even want to think about going home anymore.

And and you found a way to, to fight back using, uh, the law.

Their handbook against them.

The handbook you used it against them?

Um, the rules and regulations of the jail.

And, and how did you make that work for [crosstalk].

Because every time they violated them, I wrote 'em up.

And, and how successful were you?

Very.

You sound like a lawyer bragging about their cases.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know ...

I think there are a lot of people listening who just would not believe that this lovely woman sitting here spent 40 years in prison.

Yeah, I did.

I did.

Unfortunately, I did.

And I know I had to be accountable for what I did, but not death by incarceration, you know?

'cause people change, you know, people grow, people get mature, people make better decisions.

And at that time, I was not in that position to do that or mentally mature enough to do that.

All you, all, all we be needing is opportunities like for jobs, recreation, like the small things due to the fact that we grow up so young and not and less fortunate.

Like, we'd be forced to go through a lot of things that we don't even normally wanna do.

But since we live in poverty and, you know, jobs that only pay us minimum wage and everything, they're not gonna succeed what they gonna do, turn to violence and things like that, because that's what they need to survive.

What was it like when you heard that you were coming home?

It was like being reborn again.

You understand?

It was, um, a burden.

A relief of 30 years of incarceration lifted off my shoulders.

As far as knowledge-wise, I didn't get a chance to live out here as an adult.

So to make decisions as an adult out here is not the same as making a decision that I had to make as an adult in prison.

You know, it's a lot more at stake.

So, you know, it's a lot, lot of, it's a lot of ways that I think we had, we need to be a more understanding society that, you know, people in prison, these are people, sons and daughters and mothers.

See the progress that we've done since we've been home.

We've changed lives, we've opened doors, we've changed conversations in people.

And that's what, you know, what we really wanted to do with our second chance at coming home was not just to prove to people that we are human and, you know, we can make mistakes and change, but we are a great asset to the community.

I also started, uh, a network called the Fremont Entrepreneur Network, where we highlight the good works of people who coming out, you know, who started businesses because maybe they would marginalized and couldn't, you know, get a job or couldn't receive, uh, get a, a significant job to take care of themselves and their family.

And so they actually became entrepreneurs.

You know, it's not about punishing people for the consequences or whatever like that.

'cause when you sit in the cell, none of that stuff is helping you to be a better person.

I wasn't one of those kids that you could just throw away the key to give up on that.

I did have, um, aspirations in life, you know, and I wanted to try to prove everybody wrong.

And, and how are you doing that?

To show and try to stop other young kids from making the same mistakes that we made?

Even if it's one, just being a follower as I was.

You know, just don't try to be in, fit in because one's mistake can cost you your life.

Now, we've heard some stories today, some, some tragic stories, some stories about victories against all odds.

What should we be taking away from these stories?

How are we helping people to explore their agency?

How are we allowing them, uh, not just accept accountability in, in, in the sense that, uh, uh, well accepting accountability in the sense of understanding many of the, uh, uh, uh, circumstances in which they grew under, grew up under.

And now they understand those circumstances a little bit better.

They're able to make better decisions, but not only just make better decisions with regard to themselves, but also how are they helping others?

Kempis Songster, who goes by Ghani, has thought deeply about his experience in prison.

He says incarceration almost crushed his soul, but he decided to use that time to grow and change.

We talked about the challenge and the joy of creating a life of meaning after decades of being locked away from the world.

So on the one hand, Tamika reminds me of my Aunt, John reminds me of one of my colleagues at Georgetown Law School, and you remind me of one of my hanging buddies.

But in the eyes of the law, you guys are, are felons.

Some of you are murderers.

How do I, I I can't make those things.

You know, when dealing with the sense of life without parole, per se, like for instance, which is a sentence that basically says that hey, a person is no more than the worst thing that they ever done, is no more than their darkest moment.

It's hard for us to reconcile those contradictions like you're talking about.

But when we appreciate, we learn to appreciate people in the totality of who they are.

When we learn the backstory, when we learn about the journey, and then we see what people are capable of now, right?

And we see people trying to take accountability, then maybe we can reconcile.

You know what I'm saying?

So accountability leads to redemption.

I believe so.

And what's accountability mean?

In my view, um, accountability is, is not someone like how, how we're told we're gonna hold this person accountable by placing them in a prison cell or by punishing them.

That's not being accountable.

That's just, you'd be being a passive actor.

I just have to sit in a prison cell and, and be punished.

I don't have to be remorseful.

I don't have to show any contrition or regret for what I've done.

Shame accompanies, it rides with us for the rest of our lives.

You know what I mean?

Especially, is that productive though?

Should people feel shame?

I could only speak for myself.

You know, I could only speak for myself.

Shame is something that I am never, ever going to get rid of.

You know what I'm saying?

Cause of the harm that you caused.

Yeah.

We're not talking about a, um, a robbery that I can give some, compensate somebody back for what I took.

We're not talking about a burglary or a snatch pocket book or anything like that.

We're talking about the loss of a human life.

There is no repairing or reversing that.

There is no living that down.

These hands are bloodstained forever.

And so what do you do?

You serve.

You serve.

You can't bring life back, but you serve and you commit yourself to serving for the rest of your life.

That's my personal conviction, right?

That's, that's what accountability is for me.

It's not about the system convicting me, it's what I convict myself to.

This is my pledge.

Right now I can't bring life back, but what I can do is help save life or help steer other people away from hurting other people like I did when I was 15 years old.

And that's what the Intergenerational Healing Circle is really about.

It's about service.

It's about service, and it's about redemption, right?

It's about salvation.

It's about really making our communities healthy and safe.

That's the key to making accountability.

There's no healing without accountability and human capacity for transformation and change is real.

And that's what our government needs to do, is invest in that more by doing away with sentences such as death by incarceration that basically treat some people as if they're disposable.

Ghani, thank you for your service.

Thank you.

You've listened to the testimony of formerly incarcerated men and women, people who are courageous, vulnerable, and optimistic enough to believe that we can do better.

Maybe their hope springs from the fact that they had been sentenced to die in prison, and then the Supreme Court gave them a second chance.

Do we have the compassion to do the same thing, to reach out and lift them up to help them this time to succeed?

Returning Citizens is made possible by the United Way, fostering the success of those who as they return to our neighborhoods, remain a largely untapped resource.

The formerly incarcerated.

Waterman II Fund of the Philadelphia Foundation at the recommendation of David Haas, the Independence Foundation.