>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SUSPENSION OF THAT REFUGEE PROGRAM, DISCUSSING ONE OF SEVERAL EXECUTIVE ACTIONS OVER AIMED AT OVERHAULING THE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM.

ON SUNDAY IN FACT, IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT REPORTED MAKING MORE THAN 900 ARRESTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY AS A RESULT OF THE PRESIDENT'S CAMPAIGN TO CRACKDOWN ON UNDOCUMENTED MIGRANTS.

HE IS ALREADY PROVING HE WILL NOT BACK DOWN ON HIS PROMISES, AFTER COLUMBIA ANNOUNCED, IT HAS AGREED TO ALL OF HIS TERMS FOLLOWING A DISPUTE OVER MIGRANT REPATRIATION FLIGHTS.

FROM THE NEW YORKER, JONATHAN JOINED TO BREAK IT DOWN.

>> YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOU WROTE A RECENT PIECE TITLING, QUOTE, THE UNCHECKED AUTHORITY OF TRUMP'S IMMIGRATION ORDERS.

LET'S BREAK DOWN THE TITLE, LITTLE BY LITTLE.

WHAT IS THE UNCHECKED AUTHORITY YOU ARE MOST CONCERNED ABOUT?

>> THERE ARE TWO WAYS I THINK THIS LATEST VOLLEY OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS AND PRESIDENTIAL ACTIONS ARE UNCHECKED.

THE FIRST IS THAT THEY ARE VERY MUCH BUILT INTO THE LANGUAGE AND LANGUAGE LOGIC OF THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

THIS NOTION THAT MASS MIGRATION CONSTITUTES A KIND OF INVASION, THAT WORD IS WHAT WE HAVE HEARD A LOT OF POLITICALLY, AND AT THIS POINT, ALMOST NUMB TO HOW HISTRIONIC AND DRAMATIC IT SOUNDS.

ON A LEGAL SENSE, THE CLAIM BEING MADE BY THE NEW ADMINISTRATION IS, THE SO- CALLED INVASION NECESSITY, A WHOLE HOST OF NEW PRESIDENTIAL POWERS.

THE PRESIDENT ALWAYS HAS A LOT OF LATITUDE AND POWER OVER IMMIGRATION POLICY, BUT THE PROPOSAL THAT WE ARE SEEING IN THE CONSTELLATION OF THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS, AND A LOT OF THE EARLY ACTION OF THE ADMINISTRATION SUGGEST THAT THEY ARE TAKING THE BROADEST POSSIBLE VIEW OF WHAT THE PRESIDENT CAN DO TO DEAL WITH THE REALITY OF PEOPLE MIGRATING IN THE REGION.

THAT IS THE FIRST WAY IN WHICH THIS KIND OF NEW SET OF POWERS ARE INJECTED.

THE OTHER IS I THINK A POLITICAL ISSUE, WHICH IS, IN A MOMENT WHERE THE GENERAL CONSENSUS SEEMS TO BE, AND I DON'T THINK IT IS AS CLEAR AS THE CONFERENCE IS SEEMS TO SUGGEST, THE PRESIDENT HAS A POPULAR MANDATE TO PURSUE A LOT OF THESE IMMIGRATION POLICIES.

IMMIGRATION POLICIES ARE EXTREMELY COMPLEX.

I AM NOT CONVINCED THAT HE ALWAYS UNDERSTANDS DIFFERENT FACETS OF WHAT IMMIGRATION POLICY LOOKS LIKE, OR THAT THE IMPACT IT HAS ON PEOPLE LIVING IN THE U.S.. MY BIG CONCERN TOO, THE SAME DAY, THE FIRST DAY IN WHICH THIS TOOK PLACE, YOU ALSO HAD IN THE SENATE 12 DEMOCRATS JOINING REPUBLICANS TO TEST WHAT IS CALLED THE LAKEN RILEY ACT WHICH IS DREW COUNTY AND AND VERY EXTREME ENFORCEMENT POLICY , WHICH SUGGESTS TO ME THAT THE FACT THAT DEMOCRATS RIGHT NOW ARE VERY MUCH COWERING FROM THE KIND OF POLITICAL THREAT THAT TRUMP SEEMS TO REPRESENT ON THIS ISSUE.

MY CONCERN TO MAKE IS THAT WE ARE ENTERING A MOMENT OF VERY WILD AND RADICAL POLICYMAKING FROM THE WHITE HOUSE, WHEN THERE SEEMS TO BE A REAL SCARCITY OF POLITICAL IMPEDIMENTS.

>> LET'S TAKE IT ONE STEP AT A TIME HERE.

WE WILL GET TO THE LAKEN RILEY ACT.

FIRST, WHAT IS THE VALUE, OR I GUESS THE WORTH AND GIVING SOMETHING A NAME, CALLING IT AN INVASION, OR AS ONE OF THE OTHER EXECUTIVE ORDERS DID, COMING OUT CARTELS, CALLING THEM FOREIGN TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS?

>> THERE ARE TWO THINGS YOU SEE IN THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS, THE FIRST IS SOMETHING WE HAVE SEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP BEFORE IN HIS FIRST TERM, WHICH IS DECLARE A NATIONAL EMERGENCY AT THE SOUTHERN ORDER.

FACTUALLY, I THINK THAT IS WILD , WE ARE AT A MOMENT WHEN THE NUMBER OF ARRIVALS AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER OUR WAY DOWN.

IN FACT, THE SITUATION IS VERY MUCH UNDER CONTROL.

THAT IS NOT TO SAY THE SYSTEM DOES NOT NEED REFORM AND REPAIR, BUT THE IDEA THAT THE PRESIDENT IS SAYING, THERE IS AN EMERGENCY, AND HE IS SENDING FEDERAL TROOPS TO THE PENTAGON TO ASSIST DHS, THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, AND LAW ENFORCEMENT, THAT ALREADY TO MY MIND IS A REAL MISCONSTRUE OF WHAT THE REALITY IS ON THE GROUND.

BUT TO YOUR QUESTION, THE UTILITY FOR THE NEW ADMINISTRATION OF CALLING MASS MIGRATION AN INVASION IS, IT ALLOWS THE PRESIDENT, BY LOGIC OF THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS, OBVIOUSLY, THIS IS AN UNSETTLED LEGAL MATTER AND THERE WILL BE ALL KINDS OF CHALLENGES IN COURT, BUT BY LOGIC OF THESE ORDERS, THE IDEA IS THAT BECAUSE THE ARRIVAL, SO MANY PEOPLE CONSTITUTE AN INVASION, THE PRESIDENT HAS THE AUTHORITY TO OVER AND ABOVE AUTHORITY LAID OUT IN THE IMMIGRATION STATUES THAT REGULATE AND DIRECT IMMIGRATION POLICY, AND THEY GO TO QUESTIONS THAT ARE CONSTITUTIONAL, THAT THE PRESIDENT, COMMANDER IN CHIEF, HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY TO REPEL INVASIONS, DEFEND THE TERRITORIAL SOVEREIGNTY OF THE UNITED STATES.

ONCE WE ENTERED THAT TERRITORY, THE SCALE OF WHAT THE U.S. MILITARY CAN BE BROUGHT IN TO DO , EXPAND CONSIDERABLY.

WE ARE IN UNCHARTED TERRITORY HERE, SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT THIS WOULD ALL LOOK LIKE CONCRETELY, BUT STUDYING THROUGH THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS ARE REFERENCES TO EXTREMELY RARE AND ALARMING HISTORICAL FACTS, LIKE THE ALIEN ENEMIES ACT OF 1798, THE INSURRECTION ACT, THAT BASICALLY FORECAST THAT THE PRESIDENT IS WILLING TO GO TO GREAT, GREAT LENGTH TO USE THE MILITARY TO START CARRYING OUT ENFORCEMENT OPERATIONS AT THE BORDER AND INTERIOR OF THE COUNTRY.

WE WILL HAVE TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT THIS MATERIALIZES, BUT THAT IS AT LEAST THE LOGIC LAID OUT IN SOME OF THESE ORDERS.

>> THE ALIEN ENEMIES ACT, OR INSPIRATION ACT, SOME OF THESE REFERENCES, THESE WERE INCREDIBLY DIFFERENT TIMES IN AMERICA, RIGHT?

AT THE SAME TIME, THE PRESIDENT, EVEN IN HIS FIRST TERM, WAS ABLE TO MOBILIZE U.S.

TROOPS TO GO TO THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

WE HEAR NOW THAT THE PENTAGON WILL DISPATCH ANOTHER 150 PEOPLE AT THE BORDER AS A LAST WEEK.

>> AND I SHOULD SAY, THE FACT THAT TROOPS ARE BEING SENT TO THE BORDER TO WORK IN PARTNERSHIP WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE, NOT ONLY UNDER TRUMP IN HIS FIRST TERM, BUT UNDER DEMOCRATS AS WELL.

THAT, ON ITS OWN, IS IT SOMETHING OUT OF LEFT FIELD DAY, IN THE HISTORY OF U.S. POLICYMAKING IN REGARDS TO THE BOARD.

GENERALLY THOUGH, THERE HAS BEEN MORE OF A SPECIFIC JUSTIFICATION FOR SENDING THOSE TROOPS AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT IN TIME.

FOR INSTANCE, THERE ARE HUGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE ARRIVING, IT IS NOT FAIR OR ACCURATE TO SAY THAT FEDERAL IMMIGRATION AUTHORITIES ARE OVERWHELMED AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

IT IS EXTREMELY DUBIOUS TO BE STAGING THIS BIT OF POLITICAL THEATER WITH TROOPS BEING SENT TO THE BORDER.

THE FACT OF SENDING TROOPS, THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE HAD ACTUALLY ALWAYS HAD A ROLE TO PLAY IN IMMIGRATION MANAGEMENT AT THE BORDER, WHETHER IT IS TO PROVIDE PROVISIONAL DETENTION CENTERS FOR NEWLY ENTERED MIGRANTS, TO HELP WITH MONITORING, LOGISTICAL TASKS ALONG THE BORDER, THAT SORT OF THING ON ITS OWN ISN'T WILDLY UNPRECEDENTED.

WHAT IS IT THE LANGUAGE IN THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS, DIGESTING THAT BUT THE U.S. IS FACING IS THE SO-CALLED INVASION , A SO-CALLED HIGHER ORDER OF MILITARY INTERVENTION.

THAT TO ME IS A MAJOR DEPARTMENT AND MAJOR ESCALATION TO WHAT WE HAVE NEVER SEEN.

>> ONE OF THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS, ABOUT BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP, CHALLENGING 14th AMENDMENT, HAS ALREADY BEEN CONSTITUTIONALLY CHALLENGED.

THERE WAS A FEDERAL JUDGE ON THURSDAY THAT BLOCKED IT SAYING, IT WAS QUOTE, BLATANTLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

I GUESS, WHY EVEN TAKE THAT STEP?

WHAT IS BEHIND TRYING TO DRAFT AN EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT NOT ONLY YOU KNOW WILL BE CHALLENGED, BUT VERY LIKELY WILL GET BLOCKED IN COURT?

>> THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION, I THINK BUILT INTO THE NEW ADMINISTRATION'S PLANS, AND THAT I HAVE GOTTEN FROM THE PRESIDENT'S ADVISERS, AND ALLIES OF THE PRESIDENT'S OVER THE YEARS, IS THIS IDEA THAT IF THEY FLOWED THE ZONE DAY ONE, IF THEY ACCOMPLISH, AS ONE PRESIDENTIAL ADVISORY TOLD ME IN THE PAST, THE IDEA IS TO ACCOMPLISH IN 100 HOURS, WHAT USED TO BE ACCOMPLISHED IN 100 DAYS.

THE FEELING BEING, IF WE OVERWHELMED ALL THE OPPOSITION, OPPOSITION FROM DEMOCRATS, OPPOSITION FROM-- RESISTANCE FROM THE PUBLIC, WE CAN ACHIEVE BECAUSE IT IS HARD TO KNOW WHERE OUR POLITICAL OPPONENTS WILL START.

THE IDEA THAT BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP EXECUTIVE ORDER WOULD COME OUT AS STARKLY AN IMMEDIATE AS IT DID IS, I THINK, ALSO REFLECTIVE OF THE FACT THAT THEY ARE WILLING AND READY TO FIGHT THIS THING IN COURT.

I WOULD SAY AN ANCILLARY POLITICAL BENEFIT FOR THEM IN THESE KIND OF PROTRACTED LEGAL BATTLES IS, THE FACT THAT THE PUBLIC GETS SENSITIZED TO SOME OF THE TERMS UNDER DISCUSSION.

>> JONATHAN, THAT REMINDS ME, THERE WERE ALREADY REPORTS IN NEWARK, NEW JERSEY, THERE WERE I.C.E.

RAIDS ON THE CIVIC BUSINESS.

I KNOW SENATOR BOOKER, AND THE MAYOR HAVE BEEN PUSHING BACK ABOUT THIS AND WANT MORE INFORMATION ON EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.

THERE SEEMS TO BE A GAP HERE BETWEEN WHAT IS LAID OUT AS AN EXECUTIVE ORDER ON DAY ONE, WHETHER WE HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE COURTS TO HAVE INJUNCTIONS, AND TO STOP THINGS, VERSUS LIKE A MEMO THAT GETS WRITTEN TO THE LOCAL I.C.E.

OFFICE THAT SAYS, YOU CAN DO THIS NOW.

>> IN THE PAST, THE WAY ASCO CONDUCTED ITS OPERATIONS IS, IT PRIORITIZES PEOPLE FOR ARREST.

THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER DOCUMENT PEOPLE LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A LAW ENFORCEMENT BODY TO ATTEMPT TO ARREST ALL OF THEM UNLESS THERE ARE GUIDING PRINCIPLES FOR HOW THEY GO ABOUT THAT WORK.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED OVER THE YEARS, I.C.E.

, AS AN AGENCY, HAS DEFINED A SET OF PRIORITIES WHEREBY IT ESSENTIALLY TARGETS FOR ARREST AND DEPORTATION PEOPLE WHO HAVE COMMITTED SERIOUS CRIMES AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE ARRIVED VERY RECENTLY IN THE COUNTRY AND ARE UNDOCUMENTED AND HAVE ORDERS FOR REMOVAL.

WHEN THAT IS MEANT FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T FALL INTO THOSE PARTICULAR CATEGORIES IS, BY AND LARGE, THEY DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE RANDOMNESS OF GETTING SWEPT UP IN A PARTICULAR DAY BECAUSE OF THEIR LEGAL STATUS.

THAT IS ALL OUT THE WINDOW.

A LOT OF CHECKS ON HOW I.C.E.

ARREST OCCURRED IN THE PAST ARE ALSO OUT THE WINDOW.

FOR INSTANCE, FOR YEARS, THERE WAS A KIND OF GENERAL IDEA LAID OUT IN REGULATION AT I.C.E.

, YOU WOULD NOT MAKE ARRESTS AT SCHOOLS, HOSPITALS, PLACES OF WORSHIP IT IS CALLED, THE SENSITIVE LOCATIONS POLICY.

THAT POLICY HAS BEEN SCRAPPED.

THE IDEA NOW REALLY IS IT IS A FREE FOR ALL IN THE WAY THAT IT HAS NOT BEEN THE LAST FOUR YEARS.

WE WILL SEE FLAREUPS ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY, AND IN PARTICULARLY IN DEMOCRATIC ENCLAVES, BECAUSE THERE ARE A, LARGE IMMIGRANT POPULATIONS IN METROPOLITAN AREAS IN THE UNITED STATES, AND B, THOSE CITIES REPRESENT TO THE PRESIDENT AND HIS PARTY, POLITICAL OPPOSITION.

>> ARE WE HEADING TO A SCENARIO HERE WHERE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TRIES TO PROSECUTE STATE, LOCAL JURISDICTIONS AND INDIVIDUALS, AND KIND OF, HOW DOES THAT TENSION GETS RESOLVED ?

>> ONE OF THE STRIKING THINGS WITH SANCTUARY JURISDICTIONS, AND SO ON IS, THE POLITICS IN THESE PLACES HAS ALSO STARTED TO REALLY SHIFT THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

THERE WAS A LOT MORE OUTRIGHT RESISTANCE TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IN 2017, DURING THAT FIRST TERM, THEN THERE IS NOW.

SOME OF THIS IS THE RESULT OF THE GOVERNOR OF TEXAS'S GREG ABBOTT'S BUSING PLAN, WHICH BEGAN SPRING 2022.

HE MUST MORE THAN 100,000 RECENTLY ARRIVED MIGRANTS FROM TEXAS TO BLUE CITIES AND DATES ACROSS THE COUNTRY WITHOUT COORDINATING WITH LOCAL AUTHORITIES AT THE TIME, VERY MUCH OVERWHELMING CITY AND STATE RESOURCES.

AS A RESULT, IN A LOT OF THE CITY, I'M SPEAKING TO YOU FROM NEW YORK ME THE POLITICS IN NEW YORK CITY ITSELF, AND IN THE SUBURBS OF YORK CITY AND THE STATE AT LARGE, HAVE REALLY SHIFTED.

OVER AND ABOVE THE LEGAL QUESTIONS YOU ARE FLAGGING , THERE IS ALL THIS QUESTION OF POLITICAL WILL.

IF THERE IS SUSTAINED AND SERIOUS PRESSURE FROM THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION , BROUGHT TO BEAR ON CITIES AND STATES THAT TYPICALLY HAVE HELD THE LINE AGAINST THE FEDERAL ENCOURAGEMENT.

YOU KNOW, DO LOCAL OFFICEHOLDERS OR STATE OFFICEHOLDERS REALLY WANT TO DUKE IT OUT AT A TIME WHEN IT SEEMS THAT BY AND LARGE, THE PUBLIC'S HOSTILITY TO IMMIGRATION AS A WHOLE HAS REALLY GROWN.

>> YOU MENTIONED EARLIER THE LAKEN RILEY ACT.

FOR PEOPLE WHO AREN'T AWARE OF IT, WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF IT THAT JUST PASSED THE SENATE?

>> THE LAKEN RILEY ACT ESSENTIALLY DOES TWO THINGS, FIRST IT REQUIRES THE DETENTION OF ANY UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS WHO IS CHARGED, EVEN MINOR CRIMES LIKE SHOPLIFTING, FOR INSTANCE.

JUST TO SAY, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE CONVICTED OF THESE CRIMES, MERELY CHARGED TO TRIGGER THE MANDATORY DETENTION , AND WHAT ALMOST ALWAYS FOLLOWS THE CASE IN UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS IN THESE CASES, DEPORTATION.

THE SECOND CON OF THIS LAW, WHICH IN MANY WAYS IS EQUALLY RADICAL, IS THAT THE IDEA THAT IT ALLOWS STATE ATTORNEYS GENERAL TO SUE U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL, OR THE SECRETARY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY.

SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN PAROLED INTO THE COUNTRY-- PAROLED INTO THE COUNTRY JUST MEANS SOMEONE GIVEN LEGAL PROTECTION TO ENTER THE COUNTRY, A LEGAL STATUS, KIND OF AN OFFICIAL WAY OF BRINGING SOMEONE INTO THE COUNTRY.

IF A PERSON WHO PAROLED INTO THE COUNTRY GOES ON TO COMMIT ANY SORT OF CRYING OR CAUSES ANY KIND OF DAMAGE, WHETHER IT IS TO A PERSON, OR TO THE FINANCES OF A PERSON, OR THE STATE IN AN AMOUNT MORE THAN $100.

I MEAN, THIS IS EXTRAORDINARILY DRACONIAN.

THE FACT THAT DEMOCRATS IMMEDIATELY GOT ON BOARD WITH IT, DID NOT EVEN PUT UP MUCH OF A FIGHT, OR PUSH IN A SERIOUS WAY FOR AMENDMENTS OR CARVEOUTS, REALLY REFLECTS THEIR DESPERATION TO TRY TO OUTRUN THIS IMMIGRATION ISSUE, REALLY DOGGED THEIR PARTY, IN WHICH THE PRESIDENT HAS CLEARLY USED TO HIS ADVANTAGE.

>> WE HAVE BEEN TALKING A LOT ABOUT IMMIGRANTS COMING ACROSS THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

THERE ARE ASYLUM-SEEKERS, REFUGEES.

THOSE PROGRAMS IN THE UNITED STATES HAVE ALREADY ALSO BEEN AFFECTED BY THE INCOMING ADMINISTRATION.

WE SAW THE ACT THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE MIGHT BE USING AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

WE HAVE ALSO HEARD REPORTS ABOUT REFUGEES, INCLUDING ABOUT WHAT, 1500, 1600 AFGHANS, THE UNITED STATES HAS SAID, WILL TAKE CARE OF YOU, THEY ARE IN LIMBO TOO.

WHAT IS GOING ON?

>> THE U.S.

REFUGEE PROGRAM, WHICH TRUMPS A SINCERELY ESSENTIALLY DECIMATED HIS FIRST PROGRAM, GOT RESTORED.

NOW, IT HAS BEEN FROZEN IN PLACE AGAIN BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IN THE FORM OF HIS EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT BASICALLY SAYS, ANYONE AT ANY STAGE IN A REFUGEE RESETTLEMENT PROCESS IS NOW ON HOLD.

YOU HAVE 10,000 PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN VETTED, WHOSE SECURITY BACKGROUND CHECKS HAVE ALREADY BEEN RUN, WHO ARE LITERALLY JUST WAITING FOR AIRFARE TO COME TO THE UNITED STATES AND BE RESETTLED ARE NOW STUCK WITH NO OBVIOUS PATH FORWARD FOR THEM.

THAT IS ONE CON OF ALL OF THIS.

AS YOU MENTIONED, AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION REALLY CRACKED DOWN ON ASYLUM IN BETWEEN PORTS OF ENTRY.

SO, IF PEOPLE WERE TO SHOW UP AT THE BORDER SEEKING ASYLUM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS VERY HARSH IF PEOPLE SHOWED UP IN THE PORTS OF ENTRY.

WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION DID SIMULTANEOUSLY IS SAID, EVERY DAY AT PORTS OF ENTRY, THERE ARE APPOINTMENTS FOR 1400 PEOPLE A DAY TO BE PAROLED INTO THE COUNTRY.

THAT WAY, THEY CAN BEGIN ANY SORT OF LEGAL PROCESS THEY WANT TO PURSUE.

THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION IN ITS EXECUTIVE ORDERS HAS ALSO IMMEDIATELY HALTED THE APP THAT ALLOWED FOR THOSE APPLICATIONS AND SCHEDULING TO START.

AN ADDITIONAL PROGRAM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAD PUT IN PLACE, ALLOWING FOR 30,000 MIGRANTS FROM FOUR COUNTRIES WHERE THERE HAVE BEEN HIGH RATES OF IMMIGRATION THE LAST FEW YEARS, THAT ALSO GOT FROZEN IN PLACE.

NOW, THERE ARE LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO BY AND LARGE WERE TRYING TO AVAIL THEMSELVES OF SPECIFIC LEGAL CHANNELS CREATED BY PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION, OR ALREADY EXISTING IN U.S. LAW, ARE NOW COMPLETELY FROZEN OUT OF THE SYSTEM.

>> JONATHAN, YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING THIS TOPIC FOR QUITE SOME TIME, EVEN WROTE A BOOK ABOUT IT, EVERYONE WHO IS GONE IS HERE.

PUT THIS IN PERSPECTIVE FOR US, GIVEN THE LENGTH OF TIME YOU HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING IMMIGRATION, HOW SIGNIFICANT ARE THE CHANGES WE ARE SEEING REALLY IN THE PAST WEEK, AND COMPARE THAT TO WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING, THE IMMIGRATION POLICY THAT SEEMED TO EBB AND FLOW FROM ONE ADMINISTRATION TO THE NEXT.

>> A LOT OF THE STUFF YOU'RE HEARING ABOUT, A LOT OF THE STUFF YOU'RE SEEING, WHETHER IN THE FORM OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS OR THIS NEW LEGISLATION, ARE NOT ADDRESSING PARTICULARLY ACUTE NEEDS THAT EXPERTS SAY ARE THINGS THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED TO IMPROVE THE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM.

THE POLITICAL CONVERSATION I GUESS WHEN I TAKE THIS KIND OF BROADER VIEW, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, POLITICS AROUND IMMIGRATION HAVE ALWAYS BEEN INTENSE, ALWAYS FLARED UP OVER TIME.

WE ARE IN A MOMENT WHERE THE POLITICS HAVE VEERED OFF SO DRASTICALLY FROM ANY OF THE ACTUAL POLICY DISCUSSIONS OF WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN OR WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN TO ME I THINK THERE IS THIS LEVEL OF DYSFUNCTION THAT IS NEW.

>> JONATHAN BLITZER, AUTHOR OF "EVERYONE WHO IS GONE" IS HERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.